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第5章

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infinite is in a certain sense many; and the finite may be hereafter



discussed。



  Pro。 I agree。



  Soc。 And now consider well; for the question to which I invite



your attention is difficult and controverted。 When you speak of hotter



and colder; can you conceive any limit in those qualities? Does not



the more and less; which dwells in their very nature; prevent their



having any end? for if they had an end; the more and less would



themselves have an end。



  Pro。 That is most true。



  Soc。 Ever; as we say; into the hotter and the colder there enters



a more and a less。



  Pro。 Yes。



  Soc。 Then; says the argument; there is never any end of them; and



being endless they must also be infinite。



  Pro。 Yes; Socrates; that is exceedingly true。



  Soc。 Yes; my dear Protarchus; and your answer reminds me that such



an expression as 〃exceedingly;〃 which you have just uttered; and



also the term 〃gently;〃 have the same significance as more or less;



for whenever they occur they do not allow of the existence of



quantity…they are always introducing degrees into actions; instituting



a comparison of a more or a less excessive or a more or a less gentle;



and at each creation of more or less; quantity disappears。 For; as I



was just now saying; if quantity and measure did not disappear; but



were allowed to intrude in the sphere of more and less and the other



comparatives; these last would be driven out of their own domain。 When



definite quantity is once admitted; there can be no longer a



〃hotter〃 or a 〃colder〃 (for these are always progressing; and are



never in one stay); but definite quantity is at rest; and has ceased



to progress。 Which proves that comparatives; such as the hotter; and



the colder; are to be ranked in the class of the infinite。



  Pro。 Your remark certainly; has the look of truth; Socrates; but



these subjects; as you were saying; are difficult to follow at



first。 I think however; that if I could hear the argument repeated



by you once or twice; there would be a substantial agreement between



us。



  Soc。 Yes; and I will try to meet your wish; but; as I would rather



not waste time in the enumeration of endless particulars; let me



know whether I may not assume as a note of the infinite…



  Pro。 What?



  Soc。 I want to know whether such things as appear to us to admit



of more or less; or are denoted by the words 〃exceedingly;〃



〃gently;〃 〃extremely;〃 and the like; may not be referred to the



class of the infinite; which is their unity; for; as was asserted in



the previous argument; all things that were divided and dispersed



should be brought together; and have the mark or seal of some one



nature; if possible; set upon them…do you remember?



  Pro。 Yes。



  Soc。 And all things which do not admit of more or less; but admit



their opposites; that is to say; first of all; equality; and the



equal; or again; the double; or any other ratio of number and



measure…all these may; I think; be rightly reckoned by us in the class



of the limited or finite; what do you say?



  Pro。 Excellent; Socrates。



  Soc。 And now what nature shall we ascribe to the third or compound



kind?



  Pro。 You; I think; will have to tell me that。



  Soc。 Rather God will tell you; if there be any God who will listen



to my prayers。



  Pro。 Offer up a prayer; then; and think。



  Soc。 I am thinking; Protarchus; and I believe that some God has



befriended us。



  Pro。 What do you mean; and what proof have you to offer of what



you are saying?



  Soc。 I will tell you; and do you listen to my words。



  Pro。 Proceed。



  Soc。 Were we not speaking just now of hotter and colder?



  Pro。 True。



  Soc。 Add to them drier; wetter; more; less; swifter; slower;



greater; smaller; and all that in the preceding argument we placed



under the unity of more and less。



  Pro。 In the class of the infinite; you mean?



  Soc。 Yes; and now mingle this with the other。



  Pro。 What is the other。



  Soc。 The class of the finite which we ought to have brought together



as we did the infinite; but; perhaps; it will come to the same thing



if we do so now;…when the two are combined; a third will appear。



  Pro。 What do you mean by the class of the finite?



  Soc。 The class of the equal and the double; and any class which puts



an end to difference and opposition; and by introducing number creates



harmony and proportion among the different elements。



  Pro。 I understand; you seem to me to mean that the various



opposites; when you mingle with them the class of the finite; takes



certain forms。



  Soc。 Yes; that is my meaning。



  Pro。 Proceed。



  Soc。 Does not the right participation in the finite give health…in



disease; for instance?



  Pro。 Certainly。



  Soc。 And whereas the high and low; the swift and the slow are



infinite or unlimited; does not the addition of the principles



aforesaid introduce a limit; and perfect the whole frame of music?



  Pro。 Yes; certainly。



  Soc。 Or; again; when cold and heat prevail; does not the



introduction of them take away excess and indefiniteness; and infuse



moderation and harmony?



  Pro。 Certainly。



  Soc。 And from a like admixture of the finite and infinite come the



seasons; and all the delights of life?



  Pro。 Most true。



  Soc。 I omit ten thousand other things; such as beauty and health and



strength; and the many beauties and high perfections of the soul: O my



beautiful Philebus; the goddess; methinks; seeing the universal



wantonness and wickedness of all things; and that there was in them no



limit to pleasures and self…indulgence; devised the limit of law and



order; whereby; as you say; Philebus; she torments; or as I



maintain; delivers the soul…What think you; Protarchus?



  Pro。 Her ways are much to my mind; Socrates。



  Soc。 You will observe that I have spoken of three classes?



  Pro。 Yes; I think that I understand you: you mean to say that the



infinite is one class; and that the finite is a second class of



existences; but what you would make the third I am not so certain。



  Soc。 That is because the amazing variety of the third class is too



much for you; my dear friend; but there was not this difficulty with



the infinite; which also comprehended many classes; for all of them



were sealed with the note of more and less; and therefore appeared



one。



  Pro。 True。



  Soc。 And the finite or limit had not many divisions; and we ready



acknowledged it to be by nature one?



  Pro。 Yes。



  Soc。 Yes; indeed; and when I speak of the third class; understand me



to mean any offspring of these; being a birth into true being;



effected by the measure which the limit introduces。



  Pro。 I understand。



  Soc。 Still there was; as we said; a fourth class to be investigated;



and you must assist in the investigation; for does not everything



which comes into being; of necessity come into being through a cause?



  Pro。 Yes; certainly; for how can there be anything which has no



cause?



  Soc。 And is not the agent the same as the cause in all except



name; the agent and the cause may be rightly called one?



  Pro。 Very true。



  Soc。 And the same may be said of the patient; or effect; we shall



find that they too differ; as I was saying; only in name…shall we not?



  Pro。 We shall。



  Soc。 The agent or cause always naturally leads; and the patient or



effect naturally follows it?



  Pro。 Certainly。



  Soc。 Then the cause and what is subordinate to it in generation



are not the same; but different?



  Pro。 True。



  Soc。 Did not the things which were generated; and the things out



of which they were generated; furnish all the three classes?



  Pro。 Yes。



  Soc。 And the creator or cause of them has been satisfactorily proven



to be distinct from them…and may therefo

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