gorgias-第8章
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ot admit a word which you have been saying。 Pol。 That is because you will not； for you surely must think as I do。 Soc。 Not so； my simple friend； but because you will refute me after the manner which rhetoricians practise in courts of law。 For there the one party think that they refute the other when they bring forward a number of witnesses of good repute in proof of their allegations； and their adversary has only a single one or none at all。 But this kind of proof is of no value where truth is the aim； a man may often be sworn down by a multitude of false witnesses who have a great air of respectability。 And in this argument nearly every one； Athenian and stranger alike； would be on your side； if you should bring witnesses in disproof of my statement…you may； if you will； summon Nicias the son of Niceratus； and let his brothers； who gave the row of tripods which stand in the precincts of Dionysus； come with him； or you may summon Aristocrates； the son of Scellius； who is the giver of that famous offering which is at Delphi； summon； if you will； the whole house of Pericles； or any other great Athenian family whom you choose…they will all agree with you： I only am left alone and cannot agree； for you do not convince me； although you produce many false witnesses against me； in the hope of depriving me of my inheritance； which is the truth。 But I consider that nothing worth speaking of will have been effected by me unless I make you the one witness of my words； nor by you； unless you make me the one witness of yours； no matter about the rest of the world。 For there are two ways of refutation； one which is yours and that of the world in general； but mine is of another sort…let us compare them； and see in what they differ。 For； indeed； we are at issue about matters which to know is honourable and not to know disgraceful； to know or not to know happiness and misery…that is the chief of them。 And what knowledge can be nobler？ or what ignorance more disgraceful than this？ And therefore I will begin by asking you whether you do not think that a man who is unjust and doing injustice can be happy； seeing that you think Archelaus unjust； and yet happy？ May I assume this to be your opinion？ Pol。 Certainly。 Soc。 But I say that this is an impossibility…here is one point about which we are at issue：…very good。 And do you mean to say also that if he meets with retribution and punishment he will still be happy？ Pol。 Certainly not； in that case he will be most miserable。 Soc。 On the other hand； if the unjust be not punished； then； according to you； he will be happy？ Pol。 Yes。 Soc。 But in my opinion； Polus； the unjust or doer of unjust actions is miserable in any case；…more miserable； however； if he be not punished and does not meet with retribution； and less miserable if he be punished and meets with retribution at the hands of gods and men。 Pol。 You are maintaining a strange doctrine； Socrates。 Soc。 I shall try to make you agree with me； O my friend； for as a friend I regard you。 Then these are the points at issue between us…are they not？ I was saying that to do is worse than to suffer injustice？ Pol。 Exactly so。 Soc。 And you said the opposite？ Pol。 Yes。 Soc。 I said also that the wicked are miserable； and you refuted me？ Pol。 By Zeus； I did。 Soc。 In your own opinion； Polus。 Pol。 Yes； and I rather suspect that I was in the right。 Soc。 You further said that the wrong…doer is happy if he be unpunished？ Pol。 Certainly。 Soc。 And I affirm that he is most miserable； and that those who are punished are less miserable…are you going to refute this proposition also？ Pol。 A proposition which is harder of refutation than the other； Socrates。 Soc。 Say rather； Polus； impossible； for who can refute the truth？ Pol。 What do you mean？ If a man is detected in an unjust attempt to make himself a tyrant； and when detected is racked； mutilated； has his eyes burned out； and after having had all sorts of great injuries inflicted on him； and having seen his wife and children suffer the like； is at last impaled or tarred and burned alive； will he be happier than if he escape and become a tyrant； and continue all through life doing what he likes and holding the reins of government； the envy and admiration both of citizens and strangers？ Is that the paradox which； as you say； cannot be refuted？ Soc。 There again； noble Polus； you are raising hobgoblins instead of refuting me； just now you were calling witnesses against me。 But please to refresh my memory a little； did you say…〃in an unjust attempt to make himself a tyrant〃？ Pol。 Yes； I did。 Soc。 Then I say that neither of them will be happier than the other…neither he who unjustly acquires a tyranny； nor he who suffers in the attempt； for of two miserables one cannot be the happier； but that he who escapes and becomes a tyrant is the more miserable of the two。 Do you laugh； Polus？ Well； this is a new kind of refutation…when any one says anything； instead of refuting him to laugh at him。 Pol。 But do you not think； Socrates； that you have been sufficiently refuted； when you say that which no human being will allow？ Ask the company。 Soc。 O Polus； I am not a public man； and only last year； when my tribe were serving as Prytanes； and it became my duty as their president to take the votes； there was a laugh at me； because I was unable to take them。 And as I failed then； you must not ask me to count the suffrages of the company now； but if； as I was saying； you have no better argument than numbers； let me have a turn； and do you make trial of the sort of proof which； as I think； is required； for I shall produce one witness only of the truth of my words； and he is the person with whom I am arguing； his suffrage I know how to take； but with the many I have nothing to do； and do not even address myself to them。 May I ask then whether you will answer in turn and have your words put to the proof？ For I certainly think that I and you and every man do really believe； that to do is a greater evil than to suffer injustice： and not to be punished than to be punished。 Pol。 And I should say neither I； nor any man： would you yourself； for example； suffer rather than do injustice？ Soc。 Yes； and you； too； I or any man would。 Pol。 Quite the reverse； neither you； nor I； nor any man。 Soc。 But will you answer？ Pol。 To be sure； I will…for I am curious to hear what you can have to say。 Soc。 Tell me； then； and you will know； and let us suppose that I am beginning at the beginning： which of the two； Polus； in your opinion； is the worst？…to do injustice or to suffer？ Pol。 I should say that suffering was worst。 Soc。 And which is the greater disgrace？…Answer。 Pol。 To do。 Soc。 And the greater disgrace is the greater evil？ Pol。 Certainly not。 Soc。 I understand you to say； if I am not mistaken； that the honourable is not the same as the good； or the disgraceful as the evil？ Pol。 Certainly not。 Soc。 Let me ask a question of you： When you speak of beautiful things； such as bodies； colours； figures； sounds； institutions； do you not call them beautiful in reference to some standard： bodies； for example； are beautiful in proportion as they are useful； or as the sight of them gives pleasure to the spectators； can you give any other account of personal beauty？ Pol。 I cannot。 Soc。 And you would say of figures or colours generally that they were beautiful； either by reason of the pleasure which they give； or of their use； or both？ Pol。 Yes； I should。 Soc。 And you would call sounds and music beautiful for the same reason？ Pol。 I should。 Soc。 Laws and institutions also have no beauty in them except in so far as they are useful or pleasant or both？ Pol。 I think not。 Soc。 And may not the same be said of the beauty of knowledge？ Pol。 To be sure； Socrates； and I very much approve of your measuring beauty by the standard of pleasure and utility。 Soc。 And deformity or disgrace may be equally measured by the opposite standard of pain and evil？ Pol。 Certainly。 Soc。 Then when of two beautiful things one exceeds in beauty； the measure of the excess is to be taken in one or both of these； that is to say； in pleasure or utility or both？ Pol。 Very true。 Soc。 And of two deformed thi
