gorgias-第5章
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nvestigations； as you will see yourself； the rhetorician has been acknowledged to be incapable of making an unjust use of rhetoric； or of willingness to do injustice。 By the dog； Gorgias； there will be a great deal of discussion； before we get at the truth of all this。 Polus。 And do even you； Socrates； seriously believe what you are now saying about rhetoric？ What！ because Gorgias was ashamed to deny that the rhetorician knew the just and the honourable and the good； and admitted that to any one who came to him ignorant of them he could teach them； and then out of this admission there arose a contradiction…the thing which you dearly love； and to which not he； but you； brought the argument by your captious questions…＇do you seriously believe that there is any truth in all this？＇ For will any one ever acknowledge that he does not know； or cannot teach； the nature of justice？ The truth is； that there is great want of manners in bringing the argument to such a pass。 Soc。 Illustrious Polus； the reason why we provide ourselves with friends and children is； that when we get old and stumble； a younger generation may be at hand to set us on our legs again in our words and in our actions： and now； if I and Gorgias are stumbling； here are you who should raise us up； and I for my part engage to retract any error into which you may think that I have fallen…upon one condition： Pol。 What condition？ Soc。 That you contract； Polus； the prolixity of speech in which you indulged at first。 Pol。 What！ do you mean that I may not use as many words as I please？ Soc。 Only to think； my friend； that having come on a visit to Athens； which is the most free…spoken state in Hellas； you when you got there； and you alone； should be deprived of the power of speech…that would be hard indeed。 But then consider my case：…shall not I be very hardly used； if； when you are making a long oration； and refusing to answer what you are asked； I am compelled to stay and listen to you； and may not go away？ I say rather； if you have a real interest in the argument； or； to repeat my former expression； have any desire to set it on its legs； take back any statement which you please； and in your turn ask and answer； like myself and Gorgias…refute and be refuted： for I suppose that you would claim to know what Gorgias knows…would you not？ Pol。 Yes。 Soc。 And you； like him； invite any one to ask you about anything which he pleases； and you will know how to answer him？ Pol。 To be sure。 Soc。 And now； which will you do； ask or answer？ Pol。 I will ask； and do you answer me； Socrates； the same question which Gorgias； as you suppose； is unable to answer： What is rhetoric？ Soc。 Do you mean what sort of an art？ Pol。 Yes。 Soc。 To say the truth； Polus； it is not an art at all； in my opinion。 Pol。 Then what； in your opinion； is rhetoric？ Soc。 A thing which； as I was lately reading in a book of yours； you say that you have made an art。 Pol。 What thing？ Soc。 I should say a sort of experience。 Pol。 Does rhetoric seem to you to be an experience？ Soc。 That is my view； but you may be of another mind。 Pol。 An experience in what？ Soc。 An experience in producing a sort of delight and gratification。 Pol。 And if able to gratify others； must not rhetoric be a fine thing？ Soc。 What are you saying； Polus？ Why do you ask me whether rhetoric is a fine thing or not； when I have not as yet told you what rhetoric is？ Pol。 Did I not hear you say that rhetoric was a sort of experience？ Soc。 Will you； who are so desirous to gratify others； afford a slight gratification to me？ Pol。 I will。 Soc。 Will you ask me； what sort of an art is cookery？ Pol。 What sort of an art is cookery？ Soc。 Not an art at all； Polus。 Pol。 What then？ Soc。 I should say an experience。 Pol。 In what？ I wish that you would explain to me。 Soc。 An experience in producing a sort of delight and gratification； Polus。 Pol。 Then are cookery and rhetoric the same？ Soc。 No； they are only different parts of the same profession。 Pol。 Of what profession？ Soc。 I am afraid that the truth may seem discourteous； and I hesitate to answer； lest Gorgias should imagine that I am making fun of his own profession。 For whether or no this is that art of rhetoric which Gorgias practises I really cannot tell：…from what he was just now saying； nothing appeared of what he thought of his art； but the rhetoric which I mean is a part of a not very creditable whole。 Gor。 A part of what； Socrates？ Say what you mean； and never mind me。 Soc。 In my opinion then； Gorgias； the whole of which rhetoric is a part is not an art at all； but the habit of a bold and ready wit； which knows how to manage mankind： this habit I sum up under the word 〃flattery〃； and it appears to me to have many other parts； one of which is cookery； which may seem to be an art； but； as I maintain； is only an experience or routine and not an art：…another part is rhetoric； and the art of attiring and sophistry are two others： thus there are four branches； and four different things answering to them。 And Polus may ask； if he likes； for he has not as yet been informed； what part of flattery is rhetoric： he did not see that I had not yet answered him when he proceeded to ask a further question： Whether I do not think rhetoric a fine thing？ But I shall not tell him whether rhetoric is a fine thing or not； until I have first answered； 〃What is rhetoric？〃 For that would not be right； Polus； but I shall be happy to answer； if you will ask me； What part of flattery is rhetoric？ Pol。 I will ask and do you answer？ What part of flattery is rhetoric？ Soc。 Will you understand my answer？ Rhetoric； according to my view； is the ghost or counterfeit of a part of politics。 Pol。 And noble or ignoble？ Soc。 Ignoble； I should say； if I am compelled to answer； for I call what is bad ignoble： though I doubt whether you understand what I was saying before。 Gor。 Indeed； Socrates； I cannot say that I understand myself。 Soc。 I do not wonder； Gorgias； for I have not as yet explained myself； and our friend Polus； colt by name and colt by nature； is apt to run away。 Gor。 Never mind him； but explain to me what you mean by saying that rhetoric is the counterfeit of a part of politics。 Soc。 I will try； then； to explain my notion of rhetoric； and if I am mistaken； my friend Polus shall refute me。 We may assume the existence of bodies and of souls？ Gor。 Of course。 Soc。 You would further admit that there is a good condition of either of them？ Gor。 Yes。 Soc。 Which condition may not be really good； but good only in appearance？ I mean to say； that there are many persons who appear to be in good health； and whom only a physician or trainer will discern at first sight not to be in good health。 Gor。 True。 Soc。 And this applies not only to the body； but also to the soul： in either there may be that which gives the appearance of health and not the reality？ Gor。 Yes； certainly。 Soc。 And now I will endeavour to explain to you more clearly what I mean： The soul and body being two； have two arts corresponding to them： there is the art of politics attending on the soul； and another art attending on the body； of which I know no single name； but which may be described as having two divisions； one of them gymnastic； and the other medicine。 And in politics there is a legislative part； which answers to gymnastic； as justice does to medicine； and the two parts run into one another； justice having to do with the same subject as legislation； and medicine with the same subject as gymnastic； but with a difference。 Now； seeing that there are these four arts； two attending on the body and two on the soul for their highest good； flattery knowing； or rather guessing their natures； has distributed herself into four shams or simulations of them； she puts on the likeness of some one or other of them； and pretends to be that which she simulates； and having no regard for men's highest interests； is ever making pleasure the bait of the unwary； and deceiving them into the belief that she is of the highest value to them。 Cookery simulates the disguise of medicine； and pretends to know what food is the best for the body； and if the physician and the cook had to enter into a competit
