gorgias-第4章
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great experience of disputations； and you must have observed； I think； that they do not always terminate in mutual edification； or in the definition by either party of the subjects which they are discussing； but disagreements are apt to arise…somebody says that another has not spoken truly or clearly； and then they get into a passion and begin to quarrel； both parties conceiving that their opponents are arguing from personal feeling only and jealousy of themselves； not from any interest in the question at issue。 And sometimes they will go on abusing one another until the company at last are quite vexed at themselves for ever listening to such fellows。 Why do I say this？ Why； because I cannot help feeling that you are now saying what is not quite consistent or accordant with what you were saying at first about rhetoric。 And I am afraid to point this out to you； lest you should think that I have some animosity against you； and that I speak； not for the sake of discovering the truth； but from jealousy of you。 Now if you are one of my sort； I should like to cross…examine you； but if not I will let you alone。 And what is my sort？ you will ask。 I am one of those who are very willing to be refuted if I say anything which is not true； and very willing to refute any one else who says what is not true； and quite as ready to be refuted as to refute…I for I hold that this is the greater gain of the two； just as the gain is greater of being cured of a very great evil than of curing another。 For I imagine that there is no evil which a man can endure so great as an erroneous opinion about the matters of which we are speaking and if you claim to be one of my sort； let us have the discussion out； but if you would rather have done； no matter…let us make an end of it。 Gor。 I should say； Socrates； that I am quite the man whom you indicate； but； perhaps； we ought to consider the audience； for； before you came； I had already given a long exhibition； and if we proceed the argument may run on to a great length。 And therefore I think that we should consider whether we； may not be detaining some part of the company when they are wanting to do something else。 Chaer。 You hear the audience cheering； Gorgias and Socrates； which shows their desire to listen to you； and for myself； Heaven forbid that I should have any business on hand which would take me Away from a discussion so interesting and so ably maintained。 Cal。 By the gods； Chaerephon； although I have been present at many discussions； I doubt whether I was ever so much delighted before； and therefore if you go on discoursing all day I shall be the better pleased。 Soc。 I may truly say； Callicles； that I am willing； if Gorgias is。 Gor。 After all this； Socrates； I should be disgraced if I refused； especially as I have promised to answer all comers； in accordance with the wishes of the company； them； do you begin。 and ask of me any question which you like。 Soc。 Let me tell you then； Gorgias； what surprises me in your words； though I dare say that you may be right； and I may have understood your meaning。 You say that you can make any man； who will learn of you； a rhetorician？ Gor。 Yes。 Soc。 Do you mean that you will teach him to gain the ears of the multitude on any subject； and this not by instruction but by persuasion？ Gor。 Quite so。 Soc。 You were saying； in fact； that the rhetorician will have； greater powers of persuasion than the physician even in a matter of health？ Gor。 Yes； with the multitude…that is。 Soc。 You mean to say； with the ignorant； for with those who know he cannot be supposed to have greater powers of persuasion。 Gor。 Very true。 Soc。 But if he is to have more power of persuasion than the physician； he will have greater power than he who knows？ Gor。 Certainly。 Soc。 Although he is not a physician：…is he？ Gor。 No。 Soc。 And he who is not a physician must； obviously； be ignorant of what the physician knows。 Gor。 Clearly。 Soc。 Then； when the rhetorician is more persuasive than the physician； the ignorant is more persuasive with the ignorant than he who has knowledge？…is not that the inference？ Gor。 In the case supposed：…Yes。 Soc。 And the same holds of the relation of rhetoric to all the other arts； the rhetorician need not know the truth about things； he has only to discover some way of persuading the ignorant that he has more knowledge than those who know？ Gor。 Yes； Socrates； and is not this a great comfort？…not to have learned the other arts； but the art of rhetoric only； and yet to be in no way inferior to the professors of them？ Soc。 Whether the rhetorician is or not inferior on this account is a question which we will hereafter examine if the enquiry is likely to be of any service to us； but I would rather begin by asking； whether he is as ignorant of the just and unjust； base and honourable； good and evil； as he is of medicine and the other arts； I mean to say； does he really know anything of what is good and evil； base or honourable； just or unjust in them； or has he only a way with the ignorant of persuading them that he not knowing is to be esteemed to know more about these things than some。 one else who knows？ Or must the pupil know these things and come to you knowing them before he can acquire the art of rhetoric？ If he is ignorant； you who are the teacher of rhetoric will not teach him…it is not your business； but you will make him seem to the multitude to know them； when he does not know them； and seem to be a good man； when he is not。 Or will you be unable to teach him rhetoric at all； unless he knows the truth of these things first？ What is to be said about all this？ By heavens； Gorgias； I wish that you would reveal to me the power of rhetoric； as you were saying that you would。 Gor。 Well； Socrates； I suppose that if the pupil does chance not to know them； he will have to learn of me these things as well。 Soc。 Say no more； for there you are right； and so he whom you make a rhetorician must either know the nature of the just and unjust already； or he must be taught by you。 Gor。 Certainly。 Soc。 Well； and is not he who has learned carpentering a carpenter？ Gor。 Yes。 Soc。 And he who has learned music a musician？ Gor。 Yes。 Soc。 And he who has learned medicine is a physician； in like manner？ He who has learned anything whatever is that which his knowledge makes him。 Gor。 Certainly。 Soc。 And in the same way； he who has learned what is just is just？ Gor。 To be sure。 Soc。 And he who is just may be supposed to do what is just？ Gor。 Yes。 Soc。 And must not the just man always desire to do what is just？ Gor。 That is clearly the inference。 Soc。 Surely； then； the just man will never consent to do injustice？ Gor。 Certainly not。 Soc。 And according to the argument the rhetorician must be a just man？ Gor。 Yes。 Soc。 And will therefore never be willing to do injustice？ Gor。 Clearly not。 Soc。 But do you remember saying just now that the trainer is not to be accused or banished if the pugilist makes a wrong use of his pugilistic art； and in like manner； if the rhetorician makes a bad and unjust use of rhetoric； that is not to be laid to the charge of his teacher； who is not to be banished； but the wrong…doer himself who made a bad use of his rhetoric…he is to be banished…was not that said？ Gor。 Yes； it was。 Soc。 But now we are affirming that the aforesaid rhetorician will never have done injustice at all？ Gor。 True。 Soc。 And at the very outset； Gorgias； it was said that rhetoric treated of discourse； not ＇like arithmetic＇ about odd and even； but about just and unjust？ Was not this said？ Gor。 Yes。 Soc。 I was thinking at the time； when I heard you saying so； that rhetoric； which is always discoursing about justice； could not possibly be an unjust thing。 But when you added； shortly afterwards； that the rhetorician might make a bad use of rhetoric I noted with surprise the inconsistency into which you had fallen； and I said； that if you thought； as I did； that there was a gain in being refuted； there would be an advantage in going on with the question； but if not； I would leave off。 And in the course of our investigations； as you will see yourself； the rhetorician has been acknowledged to be incapable of ma
