gorgias-第20章
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o the Athenian people； if you mean to be in their good graces； and to have power in the state； whereas I want you to think and see whether this is for the interest of either of us…I would not have us risk that which is dearest on the acquisition of this power； like the Thessalian enchantresses； who； as they say； bring down the moon from heaven at the risk of their own perdition。 But if you suppose that any man will show you the art of becoming great in the city； and yet not conforming yourself to the ways of the city； whether for better or worse； then I can only say that you are mistaken； Callides； for he who would deserve to be the true natural friend of the Athenian Demus； aye； or of Pyrilampes' darling who is called after them； must be by nature like them； and not an imitator only。 He； then； who will make you most like them； will make you as you desire； a statesman and orator： for every man is pleased when he is spoken to in his own language and spirit； and dislikes any other。 But perhaps you； sweet Callicles； may be of another mind。 What do you say？ Cal。 Somehow or other your words； Socrates； always appear to me to be good words； and yet； like the rest of the world； I am not quite convinced by them。 Soc。 The reason is； Callicles； that the love of Demus which abides in your soul is an adversary to me； but I dare say that if we recur to these same matters； and consider them more thoroughly； you may be convinced for all that。 Please； then； to remember that there are two processes of training all things； including body and soul； in the one； as we said； we treat them with a view to pleasure； and in the other with a view to the highest good； and then we do not indulge but resist them： was not that the distinction which we drew？ Cal。 Very true。 Soc。 And the one which had pleasure in view was just a vulgar flattery：…was not that another of our conclusions？ Cal。 Be it so； if you will have it。 Soc。 And the other had in view the greatest improvement of that which was ministered to； whether body or soul？ Cal。 Quite true。 Soc。 And must we not have the same end in view in the treatment of our city and citizens？ Must we not try and make…them as good as possible？ For we have already discovered that there is no use in imparting to them any other good； unless the mind of those who are to have the good； whether money； or office； or any other sort of power； be gentle and good。 Shall we say that？ Cal。 Yes； certainly； if you like。 Soc。 Well； then； if you and I； Callicles； were intending to set about some public business； and were advising one another to undertake buildings； such as walls； docks or temples of the largest size； ought we not to examine ourselves； first； as to whether we know or do not know the art of building； and who taught us？…would not that be necessary； Callicles？ Cal。 True。 Soc。 In the second place； we should have to consider whether we had ever constructed any private house； either of our own or for our friends； and whether this building of ours was a success or not； and if upon consideration we found that we had had good and eminent masters； and had been successful in constructing many fine buildings； not only with their assistance； but without them； by our own unaided skill…in that case prudence would not dissuade us from proceeding to the construction of public works。 But if we had no master to show； and only a number of worthless buildings or none at all； then； surely； it would be ridiculous in us to attempt public works； or to advise one another to undertake them。 Is not this true？ Cal。 Certainly。 Soc。 And does not the same hold in all other cases？ If you and I were physicians； and were advising one another that we were competent to practise as state…physicians； should I not ask about you； and would you not ask about me； Well； but how about Socrates himself； has he good health？ and was any one else ever known to be cured by him； whether slave or freeman？ And I should make the same enquiries about you。 And if we arrived at the conclusion that no one； whether citizen or stranger； man or woman； had ever been any the better for the medical skill of either of us； then； by Heaven； Callicles； what an absurdity to think that we or any human being should be so silly as to set up as state…physicians and advise others like ourselves to do the same； without having first practised in private； whether successfully or not； and acquired experience of the art！ Is not this； as they say； to begin with the big jar when you are learning the potter's art； which is a foolish thing？ Cal。 True。 Soc。 And now； my friend； as you are already beginning to be a public character； and are admonishing and reproaching me for not being one； suppose that we ask a few questions of one another。 Tell me； then； Callicles； how about making any of the citizens better？ Was there ever a man who was once vicious； or unjust； or intemperate； or foolish； and became by the help of Callicles good and noble？ Was there ever such a man； whether citizen or stranger； slave or freeman？ Tell me； Callicles； if a person were to ask these questions of you； what would you answer？ Whom would you say that…you had improved by your conversation？ There may have been good deeds of this sort which were done by you as a private person； before you came forward in public。 Why will you not answer？ Cal。 You are contentious； Socrates。 Soc。 Nay； I ask you； not from a love of contention； but because I really want to know in what way you think that affairs should be administered among us…whether； when you come to the administration of them； you have any other aim but the improvement of the citizens？ Have we not already admitted many times over that such is the duty of a public man？ Nay； we have surely said so； for if you will not answer for yourself I must answer for you。 But if this is what the good man ought to effect for the benefit of his own state； allow me to recall to you the names of those whom you were just now mentioning； Pericles； and Cimon； and Miltiades； and Themistocles； and ask whether you still think that they were good citizens。 Cal。 I do。 Soc。 But if they were good； then clearly each of them must have made the citizens better instead of worse？ Cal。 Yes。 Soc。 And； therefore； when Pericles first began to speak in the assembly； the Athenians were not so good as when he spoke last？ Cal。 Very likely。 Soc。 Nay； my friend； 〃likely〃 is not the word； for if he was a good citizen； the inference is certain。 Cal。 And what difference does that make？ Soc。 None； only I should like further to know whether the Athenians are supposed to have been made better by Pericles； or； on the contrary； to have been corrupted by him； for I hear that he was the first who gave the people pay； and made them idle and cowardly； and encouraged them in the love of talk and money。 Cal。 You heard that； Socrates； from the laconising set who bruise their ears。 Soc。 But what I am going to tell you now is not mere hearsay； but well known both to you and me： that at first； Pericles was glorious and his character unimpeached by any verdict of the Athenians…this was during the time when they were not so good…yet afterwards； when they had been made good and gentle by him； at the very end of his life they convicted him of theft； and almost put him to death； clearly under the notion that he was a malefactor。 Cal。 Well； but how does that prove Pericles' badness？ Soc。 Why； surely you would say that he was a bad manager of asses or horses or oxen； who had received them originally neither kicking nor butting nor biting him； and implanted in them all these savage tricks？ Would he not be a bad manager of any animals who received them gentle； and made them fiercer than they were when he received them？ What do you say？ Cal。 I will do you the favour of saying 〃yes。〃 Soc。 And will you also do me the favour of saying whether man is an animal？ Cal。 Certainly he is。 Soc。 And was not Pericles a shepherd of men？ Cal。 Yes。 Soc。 And if he was a good political shepherd； ought not the animals who were his subjects； as we were just now acknowledging； to have become more just； and not more unjust？ Cal。 Quite true。 Soc。 And are not just men gentle； as Homer says？…or are you of anot
