lesser hippias-第5章

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SOCRATES：　　Do　you　not　see；　then；　that　the　same　man　is　false　and　also　true

about　the　same　matters？　　And　the　true　man　is　not　a　whit　better　than　the

false；　for　indeed　he　is　the　same　with　him　and　not　the　very　opposite；　as　you

were　just　now　imagining。



HIPPIAS：　　Not　in　that　instance；　clearly。



SOCRATES：　　Shall　we　examine　other　instances？



HIPPIAS：　　Certainly；　if　you　are　disposed。



SOCRATES：　　Are　you　not　also　skilled　in　geometry？



HIPPIAS：　　I　am。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　and　does　not　the　same　hold　in　that　science　also？　　Is　not

the　same　person　best　able　to　speak　falsely　or　to　speak　truly　about

diagrams；　and　he　isthe　geometrician？



HIPPIAS：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　He　and　no　one　else　is　good　at　it？



HIPPIAS：　　Yes；　he　and　no　one　else。



SOCRATES：　　Then　the　good　and　wise　geometer　has　this　double　power　in　the

highest　degree；　and　if　there　be　a　man　who　is　false　about　diagrams　the　good

man　will　be　he；　for　he　is　able　to　be　false；　whereas　the　bad　is　unable；　and

for　this　reason　is　not　false；　as　has　been　admitted。



HIPPIAS：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　Once　morelet　us　examine　a　third　case；　that　of　the　astronomer；

in　whose　art；　again；　you；　Hippias；　profess　to　be　a　still　greater　proficient

than　in　the　precedingdo　you　not？



HIPPIAS：　　Yes；　I　am。



SOCRATES：　　And　does　not　the　same　hold　of　astronomy？



HIPPIAS：　　True；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　And　in　astronomy；　too；　if　any　man　be　able　to　speak　falsely　he

will　be　the　good　astronomer；　but　he　who　is　not　able　will　not　speak　falsely；

for　he　has　no　knowledge。



HIPPIAS：　　Clearly　not。



SOCRATES：　　Then　in　astronomy　also；　the　same　man　will　be　true　and　false？



HIPPIAS：　　It　would　seem　so。



SOCRATES：　　And　now；　Hippias；　consider　the　question　at　large　about　all　the

sciences；　and　see　whether　the　same　principle　does　not　always　hold。　　I　know

that　in　most　arts　you　are　the　wisest　of　men；　as　I　have　heard　you　boasting

in　the　agora　at　the　tables　of　the　money…changers；　when　you　were　setting

forth　the　great　and　enviable　stores　of　your　wisdom；　and　you　said　that　upon

one　occasion；　when　you　went　to　the　Olympic　games；　all　that　you　had　on　your

person　was　made　by　yourself。　　You　began　with　your　ring；　which　was　of　your

own　workmanship；　and　you　said　that　you　could　engrave　rings；　and　you　had

another　seal　which　was　also　of　your　own　workmanship；　and　a　strigil　and　an

oil　flask；　which　you　had　made　yourself；　you　said　also　that　you　had　made　the

shoes　which　you　had　on　your　feet；　and　the　cloak　and　the　short　tunic；　but

what　appeared　to　us　all　most　extraordinary　and　a　proof　of　singular　art；　was

the　girdle　of　your　tunic；　which；　you　said；　was　as　fine　as　the　most　costly

Persian　fabric；　and　of　your　own　weaving；　moreover；　you　told　us　that　you　had

brought　with　you　poems；　epic；　tragic；　and　dithyrambic；　as　well　as　prose

writings　of　the　most　various　kinds；　and　you　said　that　your　skill　was　also

pre…eminent　in　the　arts　which　I　was　just　now　mentioning；　and　in　the　true

principles　of　rhythm　and　harmony　and　of　orthography；　and　if　I　remember

rightly；　there　were　a　great　many　other　accomplishments　in　which　you

excelled。　　I　have　forgotten　to　mention　your　art　of　memory；　which　you　regard

as　your　special　glory；　and　I　dare　say　that　I　have　forgotten　many　other

things；　but；　as　I　was　saying；　only　look　to　your　own　artsand　there　are

plenty　of　themand　to　those　of　others；　and　tell　me；　having　regard　to　the

admissions　which　you　and　I　have　made；　whether　you　discover　any　department

of　art　or　any　description　of　wisdom　or　cunning；　whichever　name　you　use；　in

which　the　true　and　false　are　different　and　not　the　same：　　tell　me；　if　you

can；　of　any。　　But　you　cannot。



HIPPIAS：　　Not　without　consideration；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　Nor　will　consideration　help　you；　Hippias；　as　I　believe；　but　then

if　I　am　right；　remember　what　the　consequence　will　be。



HIPPIAS：　　I　do　not　know　what　you　mean；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　I　suppose　that　you　are　not　using　your　art　of　memory；　doubtless

because　you　think　that　such　an　accomplishment　is　not　needed　on　the　present

occasion。　　I　will　therefore　remind　you　of　what　you　were　saying：　　were　you

not　saying　that　Achilles　was　a　true　man；　and　Odysseus　false　and　wily？



HIPPIAS：　　I　was。



SOCRATES：　　And　now　do　you　perceive　that　the　same　person　has　turned　out　to

be　false　as　well　as　true？　　If　Odysseus　is　false　he　is　also　true；　and　if

Achilles　is　true　he　is　also　false；　and　so　the　two　men　are　not　opposed　to

one　another；　but　they　are　alike。



HIPPIAS：　　O　Socrates；　you　are　always　weaving　the　meshes　of　an　argument；

selecting　the　most　difficult　point；　and　fastening　upon　details　instead　of

grappling　with　the　matter　in　hand　as　a　whole。　　Come　now；　and　I　will

demonstrate　to　you；　if　you　will　allow　me；　by　many　satisfactory　proofs；　that

Homer　has　made　Achilles　a　better　man　than　Odysseus；　and　a　truthful　man　too；

and　that　he　has　made　the　other　crafty；　and　a　teller　of　many　untruths；　and

inferior　to　Achilles。　　And　then；　if　you　please；　you　shall　make　a　speech　on

the　other　side；　in　order　to　prove　that　Odysseus　is　the　better　man；　and　this

may　be　compared　to　mine；　and　then　the　company　will　know　which　of　us　is　the

better　speaker。



SOCRATES：　　O　Hippias；　I　do　not　doubt　that　you　are　wiser　than　I　am。　　But　I

have　a　way；　when　anybody　else　says　anything；　of　giving　close　attention　to

him；　especially　if　the　speaker　appears　to　me　to　be　a　wise　man。　　Having　a

desire　to　understand；　I　question　him；　and　I　examine　and　analyse　and　put

together　what　he　says；　in　order　that　I　may　understand；　but　if　the　speaker

appears　to　me　to　be　a　poor　hand；　I　do　not　interrogate　him；　or　trouble

myself　about　him；　and　you　may　know　by　this　who　they　are　whom　I　deem　to　be

wise　men；　for　you　will　see　that　when　I　am　talking　with　a　wise　man；　I　am

very　attentive　to　what　he　says；　and　I　ask　questions　of　him；　in　order　that　I

may　learn；　and　be　improved　by　him。　　And　I　could　not　help　remarking　while

you　were　speaking；　that　when　you　recited　the　verses　in　which　Achilles；　as

you　argued；　attacks　Odysseus　as　a　deceiver；　that　you　must　be　strangely

mistaken；　because　Odysseus；　the　man　of　wiles；　is　never　found　to　tell　a　lie；

but　Achilles　is　found　to　be　wily　on　your　own　showing。　　At　any　rate　he

speaks　falsely；　for　first　he　utters　these　words；　which　you　just　now

repeated；



'He　is　hateful　to　me　even　as　the　gates　of　death　who　thinks　one　thing　and

says　another：'



And　then　he　says；　a　little　while　afterwards；　he　will　not　be　persuaded　by

Odysseus　and　Agamemnon；　neither　will　he　remain　at　Troy；　but；　says　he；



'To…morrow；　when　I　have　offered　sacrifices　to　Zeus　and　all　the　Gods；　having

loaded　my　ships　well；　I　will　drag　them　down　into　the　deep；　and　then　you

shall　see；　if　you　have　a　mind；　and　if　such　things　are　a　care　to　you；　early

in　the　morning　my　ships　sailing　over　the　fishy　Hellespont；　and　my　men

eagerly　plying　the　oar；　and；　if　the　illustrious　shaker　of　the　earth　gives

me　a　good　voyage；　on　the　third　day　I　shall　reach　the　fertile　Phthia。'



And　before　that；　when　he　was　reviling　Agamemnon；　he　said；



'And　now　to　Phthia　I　will　go；　since　to　return　home　in　the　beaked　ships　is

far　better；　nor　am　I　inclined　to　stay　here　in　dishonour　and　amass　wealth

and　riches　for　you。'



But　although　on　that　occasion；　in　the　presence　of　the　whole　army；　he　spoke

after　this　fashion；　and　on　the　other　occasion　to　his　companions；　he　appears

never　to　have　made　any　preparation　or　attempt　to　draw　down　the　ships；　as　if

he　had　the　least　intention　of　sailing　home；　so　nobly　regardless　was　he　of

the　truth。　　Now　I；　Hippias；　originally　asked　you　the　question；　because　I

was　in　doubt　as　to　which　of　the　two　heroes　was　intended　by　the　poet　to　be

the　best；　and　because　I　thought　that　both　of　them　were　the　best；　and　that

it　would　be　difficult　to　decide　which　was　the　better　of　them；　not　only　in

respect　of　truth　and　falsehood；　but　of　virtue　generally；　for　even　in　this

matter　of　speaking　the　truth　they　are　much　upon　a　par。



HIPPIAS：　　There　you　are　wrong；　Socrates；　for　in　so　far　as　Achilles　sp