wgolding.lordoftheflies-第49章
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of this kind； the human invention of evil will proceed； provided that certain quite arbitrary checks are not present
GOLDING： Yes； I think so； I think that the arbitrary checks that you talk about are nothing but the fruit of bitter experience of people who are adult enough to realise； 〃Well； I； I myself am vicious and would like to kill that man； and he is vicious and would like to kill me； and therefore； it is sensible that we should both have an arbitrary scheme of things in which three other people e in and separate us。〃
KERMODE： This makes it interesting； I think； to consider the place among your boys of the boy； Simon； in Lord of the Flies； who is different from the others and who understands something like the situation you're describing。 He understands； for example； that the evil that the boys fear； the beast they fear； is substantially of their own invention； but when； in fact； he announces this； he himself is regarded as
evil and killed accordingly。 Are we allowed to infer from your myth that there will always be a person of that order in a group； or is this too much？
GOLDING： It is； I think； a bit unfair not so much because it isn't germane； but simply because it brings up too much。 You see； I think on the one hand that it is true that there will always be people who will see something particularly clearly； and will not be listened to； and if they are a particularly outstanding example of their sort； will probably be killed for it。 But； on the other hand； that in itself brings up such a vast kind of panorama。 What so many intelligent people and particularly； if I may say so； so may literary people find； is that Simon is inprehensible。 But； he is prehensible to the illiterate person。 The illiterate person knows about saints and sanctity； and Simon is a saint。3
KERMODE： Yes； well he's a land of scapegoat； I suppose；
GOLDING： No； I won't agree。 You are really flapping a kind of Golden Bough over me； or waving it over my head； but I don't agree。 You see； a saint isn't just a scapegoat； a saint is somebody who in the last analysis voluntarily embraces his fate； which is a pretty sticky one； and he is for the illiterate a proof of the existence of God because the illiterate person who is not brought up on logic and not brought up always to hope for the worst says； 〃Well； a person like this cannot exist without a good God。〃 Therefore the illiterate person finds Simon extremely easy to understand； someone who voluntarily embraces this beast goes 。 。 。 and tries to get rid of him and goes to give the good news to the ordinary bestial man on the beach； and gets killed for it。
KERMODE： Yes； but may I introduce the famous Lawrence caveat here； 〃Never trust the teller； trust the tale〃？
GOLDING： Oh； that's absolute nonsense。 But of course the man who tells the tale if he has a tale worth telling will know exactly what he is about and this business of the artist as a sort of starry…eyed inspired creature； dancing along； with his feet two or three feet above the surface of the earth； not really knowing what sort of prints he's leaving behind him； is nothing like the truth。
3pare the following remarks with Donald R。 Spangler's essay 〃Simon〃 on pp。 211…215 in this volume。…Eds。
KERMODE： Well； I don't think it's necessary to state it quite so extremely。 What I had in mind here was simply that Simon in fact is ing down from the top of the hill where he's seen the dead body of the parachutist； in order to tell the other people that all is well。 He's not embracing his faith which is to be killed by the other people； he thinks he's going to put them right。
GOLDING： Ah； well； that's again a question of scale； isn't ft？ The point was that out of all the people on that island who would ascend the mountain； Simon was the one who saw it was the thing to do； and actually did it； nobody else dared。 That is embracing your fate； you see。
KERMODE： Ah； yes； without really any sense that what will happen in the end is that he shall bee the beast； which is what he does。
COLDINC： No； he doesn't bee the beast； he bees the beast in other people's opinions。
KERMODE： He bees the beast in the text also： 〃The beast was on its knees in the centre； its arms folded over its face。〃 Of course； you're here reporting what the boys in their orgiastic fury thought Simon was； but I should have said that that way of reporting allows a certain ambiguity of interpretation here； which you cannot； in fact； deny us。
GOLDING： I thought of it myself originally； I think； as a metaphor…the kind of metaphor of existence if you like； and the dead body on the mountain I thought of as being history； as the past。 There's a point a couple of chapters before where these children on the island have got themselves into a hell of a mess； they're…it's the things that have crawled out of their own bones and their own veins； they don't know whether it's a beast from sky； air or where it's ing but there's something terrible about it as one of the conditions of existence。
At the moment when they're all most anguished they say； 〃If only grown…ups could get a sign to us； if only they could tell us what's what〃…and what happens is that a dead man es out of the sky。 Now that is not God being dead； as some people have said； that is history。 He's dead； but he won't lie clown。 All that we can give our children is to pass on to them this distressing business of a United States of Europe； which won't work； because we all grin at each other across borders and so on and so forth。 And if you turn round to your parents and say 〃Please help me；〃 they are really part of the old structure； the old system； the old world； which ought to be good but at the moment is making the world and the air more and more radioactive。
KERMODE： I find it's extraordinarily interesting to think of that explanation in connection with the Ballantyne4 treatment of the same theme。 I don't know whether you would like to say just how far and how ironically we ought to treat this connection。
COLDING： Well； I think； fairly deeply； but again； not ironically in the bad sense； but in almost a passionate sense。 You see； really； I'm getting at myself in this。 What I'm saying to myself is； 〃Don't be such a fool； you remember when you were a boy； a small boy； how you lived on that island with Ralph and Jack and Peterkin〃 5 （who is Simon； by the way； Simon called Peter； you see。 It was worked out very carefully in every possible way； this novel）。 I said to myself finally； 〃Now you are grown up； you are adult； it's taken you a long time to bee adult； but now you've got there you can see that people are not like that； they would not behave like that if they were God…fearing English gentlemen； and they went to an island like that。〃 Their savagery would not be found in natives on an island。 As like as not they would find savages who were kindly and unplicated and that the devil would rise out of the intellectual plications of the three white men on the island itself。 It is really a pretty big connection ＇with Ballantyne＇。
KERMODE： In fact it's a kind of black mass version of Ballantyne； isn't it？
GOLDING： Well； I don't really think I ought to accept that。 But I think I see what you mean。 No； no； I disagree with ft entirely； I think it is in fact a realistic view of the Ballantyne situation。
4。R。 M。 Ballantyne's The Coral Island was published in 1857 in England。 See Carl Niemeyer's 〃The Coral Island Revisited；〃 College English； 22 （January； 1961）； 241…245。 Reprinted in this volume on pp。 217…223。…Eds。
5。Characters in The Coral Island。…Eds。
The Novels of William Golding＇
FRANK KERMODE
Lord of the Flies has 〃a pretty big connection〃 with Ballantyne。2 In The Cored Island Ralph； Jack and Peterkin are cast away on a desert island； where they live active； civilised； and civilising lives。 Practical difficulties are easily surmounted； they light fires with bowstrings and spy…glasses； hunt pigs for food； and kill them with much ease and a total absence of guilt…indeed of bloodshed。 （They are all Britons…a term they use to pliment each other…all brave； obedient and honourable。） There is much useful information conveyed concerning tropical islands； including
